Brian and Mike (G)
Any idea when we can expect the full AAIB report on the UK accident?
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 18:15, Brian Davies wrote:
> Raimo,
>
> When someone joins the Europa Club I send a CD of useful data that
> includes a number of AAIB and NTSB reports on Europa incidents and
> accidents plus a number of related incidents that have significance
> to our aircraft type e.g composite construction issues.
>
> Brian Davies, Europa Club membership sec.
>
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-
> list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio
> Sent: 19 June 2007 15:37
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
>
> When I practised Europa emergency landings
> with standing prop my height was 1000 feet
> from the ground when in downwind.
>
> I keeped it clean until over landing place in final.
> So I could be sure to reach estimated target.
>
> Any lower and I would not feel comfortable.
>
> Raimo; no Europa-experience much yet but building it fast
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Boulet
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 4:11 PM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
>
> Hi all;
> Just my 2 cents. I must stress how important it is to fly the 180
> with your prop windmilling (insanity to shut the engine down). I
> owned a Cessna 172 for many years and at altitude practiced the
> turn back. You actually turn more than 180 degrees- something like
> 210 if I recall so that you can fly back to the runway. Then you
> have to turn 30 degrees in opposite direction to line back up with
> r-way centerline. In my Cessna I recall losing some 800 feet of
> altitude- possibly more (it's been awhile). Upon takeoff I would
> call out "decision height" even if no one else was listening as a
> reminder of whether I would control crash straight ahead... or turn
> back to r-way.
>
> Keep the shiny side up;
>
> Paul Boulet, N914PB, Maliboulet, California
>
> Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi> wrote:
> It is very human and natural reaction to turn back
> and try to save the plane and make a day.
>
> If you land straight ahead you will probably survive
> but your beautiful plane will be broken more or less.
>
> If you turn back you may get killed but if everything
> goes well, you will fly again in the same day
> (after refueling or what so ever).
>
> What a problem to make decision in a few seconds.
> Break your baby or take a risk of death.
>
> Personally, I have decided not to turn back in any case
> below 600 feet (engine quit situation). Of course I am
> not sure can I keep my decision in a real life case.
>
> After this once-again-sad-Europa-accident I noticed
> I will definetely not to tell it to my wife any more.
> This is too much. This is not fun. This is a bad shadow.
>
> There are let=B4s say couple of hundreds of flying Europas.
> How many of them are destroyed until this day during the years?
> 5% ? 10% ?
>
> I would like to see a list of accidents. I wanna study the mechanisms.
> Maybe this kind of list could save a soul or couple. Europa safety
> officer?
>
> What about RV`s - how many serioush accidents in a year?
> What about comparison with certified aircrafts?
>
> This is how I learned to fly Europa: I keep the speed nailed to 75
> knots MINIMUM.
> in every phase of landing circuit. There is a good reserve against
> gusts and failures.
> When landing it is 75 knots until ground effect and height about 3
> feets.
> Then slowing until stalling to the ground. Also my minimum climbing
> speed is 75 knots.
> With that speed I have managed to land to the "runway" 300 m /1000
> feet.
>
> I did also some emergency landings with standing prop (it stopped
> windmilling below 80 knots in my case [912S & Warp Drive]).
> Sidewind 90 degrees was 9 knots but runway was in that case giant.
> Ground loop was very near - tail wheel marked the asphalt with
> black rubber and was screaming.
>
> Regards, Raimo
> ============
>
> Raimo M W Toivio
>
> OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, test flying, 11 hours & 41 succesful
> landings
> OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, engine overhauling
> OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
>
> 37500 Lempaala
> Finland
> tel + 358 3 3753 777
> fax + 358 3 3753 100
> gsm + 358 40 590 1450
>
> raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
> www.rwm.fi
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: William Harrison
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 2:22 PM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
>
> Carl,
>
> Yes, below some magic height the 180 turn back will be a killer in
> any aircraft, but different for every aircraft. Above that height
> it might be a lifesaver. So, what is the height for various
> permutations of airspeed, flap, weight, prop status etc?
>
> I can only say that I was always able to do a safe 180 at 75kts,
> flaps up (trigear, 100HP) in about 250 feet when I practised.
>
> When it all goes quiet, we don't have long to think about it so a
> personal rule of thumb about when and when not to attempt a turn
> back is worth deriving in advance from the comfort of our armchairs.
>
> What other views/data has anyone got?
>
> Willie
>
>
> On 19 Jun 2007, at 11:54, Carl Pattinson wrote:
>
>> Based on my experience of takeoff in the Europa (we only have the
>> 80hp Fixed pitch) airspeed will only be in the region of 65 knots
>> at this stage flaps down (we dont retract the flaps till 500
>> feet) .The steep bank that would be required for a 180 degree turn
>> at such a height would almost certainly result the inboard wing
>> stalling with inevitable results.
>>
>> Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low
>> height will know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under
>> 500 feet and the only safe option is to land sraight ahead -
>> sometimes a 90 degree turn may be possible if the field is large
>> enough.
>>
>> While its impossible to predict the outcome of landing ahead even
>> in shrub or bush the likelyhood is that the occupants of a Europa
>> crash would walk away from it. Such a crash occurred about three
>> years ago in Alderney - (Channel Islands) and the occupants
>> survived with few injuries.
>>
>> Carl Pattinson
>> G-LABS
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: William Harrison
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:56 AM
>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
>>
>> Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident.
>> However, it highlights the issue of turning back to the runway.
>> John Brownlow, who did my conversion training for the Europa, told/
>> showed me that you can do a safe 180 turn back from 300 feet (much
>> lower than for many types). I practised a few times. I think I'll
>> practise a few more times.
>>
>> The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was
>> between 200 and 300 feet when it turned back.
>>
>> Willie
>>
>>
>> On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote:
>>
>>> A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an airforce
>>> c-130 pilot/instructor. He flew his Europa frequently like once
>>> a week.
>>>
>>> He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West there
>>> is a large golf course under the approach to the runway. The
>>> crash site is between the runway and the golf course.
>>>
>>> It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one would
>>> think if he had an engine failure that he would elect the natural
>>> emegency site ahead. Can that mean that there was a control
>>> failure or perhaps a sudden medical cause? We may never know.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/18/07, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>>> Dave and Dale,
>>>
>>> I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the friends and
>>> family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear to
>>> have had
>>> personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue to
>>> share any
>>> information on the accident with the Europa community.
>>>
>>> Fred
>>>
>>> >
>>> > After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken Hill who
>>> flies
>>> > out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing, told me
>>> it was,
>>> > in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken was a
>>> > terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of hours. Another
>>> > terrible loss.
>>> > Dale Hetrick
>>>
>>> On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord wrote:
>>>
>>> > Mike,
>>> >
>>> > Ken had long range tanks, which could have been installed at
>>> the time
>>> > of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which he posted
>>> > about a year ago:
>>> >
>>> > The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from the local
>>> boat
>>> > dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and the
>>> pump is
>>> > Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped to the
>>> wing
>>> > tie bar for restraint.
>>> >
>>> > I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year ago, not long
>>> > after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in the
>>> airplane
>>> > at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times, I don't
>>> know,
>>> > nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the tie-downs he
>>> used to
>>> > hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire in this
>>> > accident might not be representative of what is likely to
>>> happen to
>>> > other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I have
>>> heard
>>> > of the accident say that the impact was nearly vertical.)
>>> >
>>> > Dave DeFord
>>> > N135TD
>>>
>>> --
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>>> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
>>> believed to be clean.
>>>
>>>
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>>
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> 18/06/2007 15:02
>
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