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Re: Europa-List: Can we borrow your tank?

Subject: Re: Europa-List: Can we borrow your tank?
From: Bud Yerly <budyerly@msn.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 11:45:00
To all fuel tank concerns
Europa has 25 tanks on order, however, the mold was damaged / discarded 
by the manufacturer.  The new tank, made by Roger and John that I have 
---From 2009, holds a bit more fuel (I have 20 gallons useable in my 
trigear filled to the brim) and has reinforcements in addition to the 
normal support tabs.  I am not privy to the new tank manufacturers mold 
to see that it is exactly the same.  Karen expects delivery in a couple 
weeks, but it will have to undergo QC first.  I am watching and waiting 
for a tank also for a new customer.

For those attempting to build a fiberglass composite tank using the old 
tank as a mold, I believe the molding in place to be more time consuming 
than just pulling the old tank and replacing it with the new tank and 
properly supporting it.  

Fiberglass tanks, as pointed out by Graham, have problems with auto 
fuel.  
No fiberglass tank (epoxy, vinylester, or polyester) holds up with Auto 
Fuel with Ethanol.  The marine industry coats the inside of fiberglass 
tanks with specialized coatings to protect the fiberglass from auto fuel 
additives and ethanol.  It appears AV Gas is safe with all fiberglass 
tanks.  However, the AV Gas formula is under review by the FAA for 
changes, so no guarantees.

Repairs to the current tank is difficult.  Epoxy and glass stick very 
well to the PTFE tank material.  Jeff Roberts has successfully repaired 
his tank, but it depends where your crack is.  I have repaired the top 
of the tank with glass and pro seal.  Note, that proseal softens with 
time when exposed to ethanol, but has not failed so far.  The problem 
with glass repairs to the tank, in my opinion, is that the bond has less 
peel strength than ideal and under flexing and pressure will eventually 
fail.

I believe, and have put my money where my mouth is, that the solution to 
the tank cracking is the support structure used for the tank.
For those of you who haven't seen my previous posts, I have attached one 
of my drawings to show what I mean.  The front of the tank is totally 
unsupported from the area above the spars (the ledge) to the bottom rear 
of the tank.  Tank flexing of the older and thinner tank will force the 
tank to eventually crack at the areas that are glassed hard and not 
allowed to move.  Whether the tank gets brittle with age, from the 
fiberglass interface, gets brittle with being left empty during long 
repairs, or what, I really don't care, as all poly tanks will flex, and 
going from empty to full will cause a flex of a tank and eventually, if 
forced back and forth, will fail.

Metal cracks also unless properly supported, has condensation problems , 
and it is expensive for odd shaped tanks to build, fiberglass has its 
fuel compatibility problems, molding issues, etc., and PTFE or poly 
tanks have their long term problems unless properly supported.  

What has my company done?
Defined how to support the tank.  We do not glass the tank directly to 
the cockpit module structure per the instruction manual.  We put release 
plastic between the required build manual supports and tank to prevent 
the required supports from sticking permanently and creating a stress 
riser.  We use glass tabs to secure it at the top, for fore/aft and side 
to side movement.  Polyurethane foam is used to secure the tank from 
shifting, and we carefully build lower tank supports.  (On a new build 
it means fitting the module a couple more times to fit an expand cell 
pad laid along the bottom of the tank perimeter covered with 2 mil 
plastic to define where the tank sits and requires support.  The expand 
cell is then sanded to final shape and glassed over making a very good 
support.)  The tank also sits on a cork support for padding (kind of 
overkill) to prevent wear, but plastic works OK also.  This means the 
tank is supported vertically and horizontally by the saddle, the bottom, 
the front ledge, and foam wedged with urethane foam to prevent movement 
fore, aft , up , or down.  All weight is carried by a combination of the 
floor and the bulkheads.

Existing tanks have added non expanding polyurethane foam sprayed under 
the tank to support the bottom, but this is not ideal as I prefer a 
longeron and ribs be glassed to the floor for the tunnel area and across 
the front of the tank for vertical support.  This adds support for the 
tank bottom, back and sides as opposed to the previous supports which 
hung the tank solely off the bulkheads...

Other bandaids:
We have a plastic welder and have tried it recently on PTFE tanks used 
in commercial lawn equipment (which are poorly supported fuel tanks and 
prone to cracking with age) and have had success so far.  Not an exact 
science but we have also done an auto radiator, and a auto overflow 
coolant tank to see what the long term effects are.  We are concerned 
that the heat stress near the weld may be brittle and fail, so time will 
tell.  Pulling the tank and welding is not cost effective as one may as 
well drop in another tank.

In the mean time, I am waiting for a new tank to drop in as that is the 
easiest of all solutions, as the tank supports can be put in quite 
easily through the hole in the top of the module.  This I believe will 
solve the problems of stress risers and tank failures.  Anyone can 
replace a tank in less than a week.

Regards,
Bud 


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Nic<mailto:scouttwo@sbcglobal.net> 
  To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com> 
  Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2011 12:17 AM
  Subject: Re: Europa-List: Can we borrow your tank?


<scouttwo@sbcglobal.net<mailto:scouttwo@sbcglobal.net>>

  Fred,

  I have read the stories of failing fuel tanks while landing in trees.

  While a challenging feat to be sure, the tank shouid still not fail.

  Aluminum would suffice but I already have one sized to fit.

  I always figured the inner layer bonds with the outer layer throught 
the 
  holes.

  This should encase the plastic which now would merely provide the 
shape.

  I think I would also make a removeable lid panel to mount all tank 
access 
  through.

  I have several motorcycle fuel pumps for 50 psi output for my CBR 
engine.

  Nic :) 


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