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Re: Europa-List: 914 Prop Question One more thought

Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Prop Question One more thought
From: David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 18:57:07

Tony, To compare with the figures Bud has produced so meticulously for fixed 
pitch props, you may like to compare those I have found with my  XS/mono/914 
/Woodcomp CS  SR 3000 high twist prop and the low twist SR2000 pro at 90 % 
Max AUW loading:
Ground run - Not accurately measured but around 100 metres
Climb from1000 to 2000ft:  SR3000 40 secs(= 1500fpm) SR2000 42 secs Top True 
airspeed with100% power
                          at 2000ft          SR3000 156 kts SR2000 152 kts
                          at 6500ft          SR3000164kts   SR2000 160kts
 The warp drive blade is low twist and I would guess on a CS hub it would 
give equivalent figures nearer the SR20000 than the SR3000, but even so you 
will see that climb rate and  top speed are dramatically better than with a 
fixed pitch prop. One other point about the high twist prop is that it 
produced dramatically better cooling than the SR2000, effectively curing 
what had always been an issue with my plane ( this is what you would expect 
theoretically as with low twist blades the inner 1/3 or so of the blade 
effectively operates in Beta mode at cruise speeds, effectively diverting 
air from the Europa air inlets!)
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bud Yerly" <budyerly@msn.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Prop Question One more thought


Tony,
One more thought on matching the 914 with a fixed propeller.

All advice given by our learned companions is true.  I thought I'd throw a 
couple of numbers I have seen for your decision process.

In accomplishing the initial flight test of the LSA version of the Europa, I 
flew 12AY with two fixed pitch props attached to my 914 Trigear with Classic 
Wings and XS Fuselage mods...

Keep in mind propeller theory is a bit of a zen art as each airframe, 
engine, turbo system, fuel injected vs carburated, etc. greatly affect the 
performance as does the blade width, length, twist taper and flexibility. 
Many times you are comparing apples and oranges.  This prop with this engine 
works great to one guy and is disgusting to another.  The prop twist and 
taper of one custom fixed pitch prop on a trigear is no problem, and in the 
event of a ground loop in a mono, a very costly mishap.  In selecting a 
prop, the strength of a prop should never be compromised and its ability to 
absorb abrasion from rain, grass and dirt must be considered in the choices 
as well as cost and insurance coverage for a prop strike.  As all things in 
an airplane, compromises must be made..

I have tested 64 inch Sensenich ground adjustable two blade and the Warp 
Drive 64 inch three blade ground adjustable propellers.
Both were adjusted to work by minute pitch adjustments.  I tweaked until the 
whole engine/prop combination could be repeatable, dependable, and 
acceptable to my standards.  These standards are: it can't allow the engine 
to overheat (ground or air), or over speed, or over boost in any normal 
operation, give a minimum climb of 700 FPM fully loaded at 75 KIAS  at full 
power, cruise at least 120 KIAS at sea level, and climb at max continuous to 
10,000 feet (7500 minimum) in 20 minutes or about 500 FPM average.

For testing here at my shop it have found the following:

Set the pitch so as to get 5200 RPM static at 40 inches of Manifold Pressure 
(38 if you have the older 914).  This drops your power available from 115 HP 
to about 100 HP.  This is a recommendation by Rotax and prevents over 
boosting and eventual damage.  It also is a good all round start for a pitch 
setting.  For the newer 914 engine, that is about 21 degrees (20.5 for the 
old 914) prop pitch at the tip of the Warp Drive.

Takeoff allows the prop to unload while accelerating to about 5500 RPM while 
at 38 inches and gets you away from the ground quickly at 75 KIAS.

Once airborne and above 1000 MSL in a 75 KIAS Climb, begin pulling the 
throttle back to 100% (out of turbo),  the RPM drops disgustingly to about 
5000 at 34 inches MP.  This greatly reduces the climb, read as dropping the 
nose a lot.  However if the climb speed is increased to 90 KIAS the RPM 
comes up to about 5300, the MP pressure stays close to the mid 30s and the 
rate of climb is tolerable and the transition from the 75 to 90 with 
throttle retard seem natural.

Climb to 7500 MSL is reasonable at approximately 700 fpm with one on board 
and a bit labored at 500 average loaded.

Cruise at 5500 MSL tops at about 122 KTAS at 5000 RPM and 31 inches.  Max at 
5500 RPM and about 35 inches only goes up to about 127.

I am working from memory here on Sunday morning so the numbers are ish.

I have found with a basic Airmaster AP 332, climb after takeoff is about 
1400 FPM, Climb at max continuous starts at 1000 FPM and drops to 4-500 FPM 
at 10000 MSL.  Climbs above 10,000 with the Airmaster start to drop off 
using the narrow chord Warp Drive blades.  Cruise is up from 120 ish to 135 
ish at 7500 MSL.  Airmaster has now completed and is selling a reverse or 
Beta with the AP332 for sea planes.  Much was done to keep this mod safe and 
full proof.  So for you guys that must have everything, (sea or ski 
operations), beta is now available.  Use with much care.

My experience has shown me that the 914 needs a constant speed prop with 
automatic adjustment (rather than variable pitch) to be properly used and 
give the full potential of the engine. The constant speed prop eases cockpit 
workload in high cockpit task operations (takeoff and land), provide a 
safety margin to prevent over speed, or over boost possibilities in go 
around or spirited flight situations, improves cruise speed and fuel 
mileage, and reduces the thrust for short field operations when coming into 
a short field fully loaded.

That said, based on the repair rates of new low time mono pilots and 
propeller tip damage I have experienced as an Airmaster dealer, a fixed 
pitch prop used during the initial flight test and learning phase is not a 
bad decision.  It saves initial cost to the mono guys until they are 
comfortable with the landing characteristics, techniques, etc.  It also 
gives a spare prop for the eventual tip strike or other maintenance action 
after upgrading to a constant speed.  Use care for the CG shift and 
engine/gearbox/oil system changes during a prop swap.


My further testing of the Airmaster two and three blade has been cut short 
by LSA testing and damage from Sun n Fun taking forever to fix with the 
backlog of customers in my shop and the painters (customers come first).  My 
apologies to all, but circumstances have delayed any further fixed pitch 
testing....  Jabiru engine testing with various propellers has been 
curtailed also, until we can get the Jabiru 3300 in an airplane that will 
stay cool enough throughout the performance envelope to allow a full test 
profile.

Regards to All,

Bud Yerly
Europa Tech Support
Custom Flight Creations, Inc.
www.customflightcreations.com<http://www.customflightcreations.com/>
(813) 653-4989


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tony Renshaw<mailto:tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com>
  To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
  Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 10:50 PM
  Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Prop Question,,,,,,,,Thanks for the 
responses


<tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com<mailto:tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com>>

  Thanks to all that replied regarding the negatives of a Fixed Pitch prop 
on a 914. It was more a revision of knowledge than a serious desire, but Bob 
Catto is a very impressive fellow and it got me thinking. As for better 
abilities in gliding and stopping re pitch settings and other good advice, I 
am now the wiser.
  Reg
  Tony Renshaw

  On 28/08/2011, at 7:12 AM, David Joyce wrote:

<davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk<mailto:davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>>
  >
  > Tony, One benefit of a VP prop that I don't believe has been mentioned 
but which reference to ground looping brings to mind is that in fine pitch 
the slowing down effect of the idling prop is very noticeably greater than 
in coarse pitch. If you are trying to glide somewhere and the prop pitch 
change system still works, fine pitch is a great asset whereas to stop in a 
short distance you definitely want it in fine. On T/Off  fine pitch also 
takes you very quickl;y through the dodgy steering phase if you have a mono. 
Clearly a fixed pitch prop is going to miss out somewhat on both counts.  So 
I guess you are less likely to lose control on the ground and end up ground 
looping if you have a VP/CS prop.
  >            Incidentally have you looked at the list of flying planes on 
the Europa Club website where engines & props are listed for pretty much 
every flying Europa?
  > Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
  >
  >
  >
  >


  
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