Greg-
Before you order from Belgium, you may want to Google it and see what you can
find
in the US. I just did and "Aerotape" in Orlando, FL comes up and they list
Huntsman on their web site. I did not call, but it would certainly be worth
researching before you go the long way.
Jim Puglise A-383, Punta Gorda, FL
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "gregoryf.flyboy" <gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net>
Looks like this thread has died down, so
Thankyou Brian and Nev. This is good information. Nev, the description on your
test results was refreshingly invaluable. It is info that is hard to come by.
I saw the original thread from Brian on the Matronix server concerning the
independent
testing being done by Andy Draper, but never saw the results on the
server.
I had a personal email response from Andy about a year ago, that I just looked
at, concerning the different epoxy manufactures (I had almost forgotten I had
this). In there, was the same response in the structural adhesive section of the
email: We have found that none of the Aeropoxy or Hysol products compare
favourably
with Araldite/Epibond 420 (formerly Redux 420).
Because of the cost and hassle in getting the A/E 420 here in the states, I had
been starting to lean towards Aeropoxy 6228, but it now seems that until I can
get an adhesive that is known to be at least equivalent or better in all tests,
its going to have to be Araldite/Epibond for me. My order of 1.4Kg 2-part
Araldite 420 kits (QTY 3) is now in process (albeit it is back-ordered)
Hopefully,
it will be enough. If most everyone has used more, let me know now,
to avoid multiple export/import tariffs and taxes that would be on the second
order (and to help keep me from being tempted to going back to Aeropoxy 6228
(which
has been used successfully by at least one (and I suspect many) builder
already, on parts of the wing or windscreens, not to mention the Velocity).
Hopefully soon, the stalled sections of the build can commence.
Thanks again. I know all this will be useful to future builders, since I beat
myself
up, over this decision.
Greg Fuchs (A050)
Tigard (Portland), Oregon
Tail Kit, looking ahead, but not yet moved to wing/fuselage (transporting them
to my build location tomorrow)
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Aeropoxy 6228 ~ NEV?
In a message dated 13/04/2007 16:00:08 GMT Standard Time, EuropaXSA276@aol.com
writes:
I have been most interested in this product. The Aeropoxy rep at Sun N Fun had
told me the it was under testing by Europa as a replacement adhesive a few years
back.
I talked with Andy a year later, at Sun n Fun inquiring about the testing. He
replied
that the product did not hold up to his expectations. Therefore it was
never "approved".
I most certainly would like to know more about the testing and what issues were
found. The 6228 has cost and accessibility benefits.
Perhaps Nev could fill us in on the subject?
Hi Brian et all,
The Aeropoxy adhesive is NOT suitable as a replacement for Redux / Araldite 420
in use on a Europa.
Tests I carried out way back when , back to back, with Aeropoxy and 420 showed
the Aeropoxy to be far too brittle.
Lap joint test samples were made useing the pre preg laminates as in the
fuselage
/ wing skins, same materials / same sizes / same surface preparation / same
cure cycle / with both adhesives. Did 10 of each from memory?
Didn't need to get them scientifically strain tested [ by Slingsby, which is
what
we had done with various lay up resins] a simple blow with a hammer on one
end of the tab , with the other end clamped in a vice showed that the Aeropoxy
bonded ones let go every time, whereas the 420 bonded ones would take one hell
of a beating before eventually the pre preg would fail.[ Same hammer ! ]
The make up of the 420 includes rubber granules, so there is a fair amount of ''
give '' in the bond.
This is allways a good test to check if the 420 has '' time lifed ''. [ in spite
of the very conservative expiry date set by the manufacturer ] If the bond
fails,
bin it, if the glass fails, it is still good.
I also tested a couple of other adhesives [ at different times ] against the
420,
similar results.
If there had been a suitable replacement to 420, it would have been used in the
U.S.A. as we had a lot of hassle getting the 420 shipped over [ Dangerous Goods
and all that !]
Don't experiment and risk your life, just to save a few bucks ?
Cheers,
Nev.
<html><body>
<DIV>Greg-</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Before you order from Belgium, you may want to Google it and see what you
can find in the US. I just did and "Aerotape" in Orlando, FL comes up and
they list Huntsman on their web site. I did not call, but it would
certainly
be worth researching before you go the long way.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Jim Puglise A-383, Punta Gorda, FL</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px
solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From:
"gregoryf.flyboy"
<gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net> <BR>
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<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt;
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Looks like this thread has died down,
so<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt;
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt;
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thankyou Brian and <?xml:namespace prefix
= st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State
w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Nev.</st1:place></st1:State> This is good information.
<st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Nev</st1:place></st1:State>, the
description
on your test results was refreshingly invaluable. It is info that is
hard to come by. I saw the original thread from Brian on the Matronix
server
concerning the independent testing being done by Andy Draper, but never
saw the results on the server.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt;
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt;
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I had a personal email response from Andy
about a year ago, that I just looked at, concerning the different epoxy
manufactures
(I had almost forgotten I had this). In there, was the same response
in the structural adhesive section of the email: </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial
color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial">We
have found that none of the Aeropoxy or Hysol products compare favourably
with Araldite/Epibond 420 (formerly Redux 420).</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt;
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt;
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Because of the cost and hassle in getting
the A/E 420 here in the states, I had been starting to lean towards Aeropoxy
6228, but it now seems that until I can get an adhesive that is known to be at
least equivalent or better in all tests, its going to have to be
Araldite/Epibond
for me. My order of 1.4Kg 2-part Araldite 420 kits (QTY 3) is
now in process (albeit it is back-ordered) Hopefully, it will
be enough. If most everyone has used more, let me know now, to avoid multiple
export/import tariffs and taxes that would be on the second order (and to
help keep me from being tempted to going back to Aeropoxy 6228 (which has been
used successfully by at least one (and I suspect many) builder already, on parts
of the wing or windscreens, not to mention the
Velocity).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt;
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt;
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hopefully soon, the stalled sections of
the build can commence.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt;
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks again. I know all this will be useful
to future builders, since I beat myself up, over this
decision.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt;
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt;
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Greg Fuchs (A050)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt;
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Tigard (<st1:City
w:st="on">Portland</st1:City>),
<st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Oregon</st1:place></st1:State><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt;
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Tail Kit, looking ahead, but not yet moved
to wing/fuselage (transporting them to my build location
tomorrow)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt;
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt;
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt;
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;
FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> Re: Europa-List:
Aeropoxy 6228 ~ <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">NEV</st1:place></st1:State>?</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">In a message dated 13/04/2007 16:00:08
GMT Standard Time, EuropaXSA276@aol.com
writes:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP:
medium
none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM:
0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in;
BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I have been most interested in this
product.
The Aeropoxy rep at Sun N Fun had told me the it was under testing
by Europa as a replacement adhesive a few years back.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I talked with Andy a year later, at Sun
n Fun inquiring about the testing. He replied that the product did
not hold up to his expectations. Therefore it was never
"approved".<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I most certainly would like to know more
about the testing and what issues were found. The 6228 has cost and
accessibility
benefits.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Perhaps <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Nev</st1:place></st1:State> could fill us in on the
subject?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi Brian et
all,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The Aeropoxy adhesive is NOT suitable
as a replacement for Redux / Araldite 420 in use on a
Europa.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Tests I carried out way back when , back
to back, with Aeropoxy and 420 showed the Aeropoxy to be far too
brittle.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Lap joint test samples were made
useing the
pre preg laminates as in the fuselage / wing skins, same materials
/ same sizes / same surface preparation / same cure cycle / with both
adhesives.
Did 10 of each from memory?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Didn't need to get them
scientifically strain
tested [ by Slingsby, which is what we had done with various lay
up resins] a simple blow with a hammer on one end of the tab , with the
other
end clamped in a vice showed that the Aeropoxy bonded ones let go every
time, whereas the 420 bonded ones would take one hell of a beating before
eventually the pre preg would fail.[ Same hammer !
]<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The make up of the 420 includes rubber
granules, so there is a fair amount of '' give '' in the
bond.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This is allways a good test to check if
the 420 has '' time lifed ''. [ in spite of the very conservative expiry date
set by the manufacturer ] If the bond fails, bin it, if the glass
fails, it is still good. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I also tested a couple of other
adhesives
[ at different times ] against the 420, similar
results.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If there had been a suitable replacement
to 420, it would have been used in the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">U.S.A.</st1:place></st1:country-region> as we had a lot of hassle
getting the 420 shipped over [ Dangerous Goods and all that
!]<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Don't experiment and risk your life,
just
to save a few bucks ?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><FONT face=Arial
color=black
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial">Nev.</SPAN></FONT></st1:place></st1:State><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><PRE><B><FONT
face="Courier New" color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR:
black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></B></PRE><PRE><B><FONT
face="Courier New" color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR:
black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></B></PRE></DIV><PRE><B><FONT
face="courier new,courier" size=2
color000000?>
</B></FONT></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
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